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When you have leaders who feel no adherence to norms or customs, [there’s] nothing preventing them from violating them.

Mike Berkowitz

Donald Trump’s attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election split the Republican party. There were those who went along with it — 147 members of Congress raised objections to the official certification of electoral votes — but there were others who refused. These included Brad Raffensperger and Brian Kemp in Georgia, and Vice President Mike Pence.

Although one could say that the latter Republicans showed great courage, the key to the split may lie less in differences of moral character or commitment to democracy, and more in what was being asked of them. Trump wanted the first group to break norms, but he wanted the second group to break the law.

And while norms were indeed shattered, laws were upheld.

Today’s guest Mike Berkowitz, executive director of the Democracy Funders Network, points out a problem we came to realize throughout the Trump presidency: So many of the things that we thought were laws were actually just customs.

So once you have leaders who don’t buy into those customs — like, say, that a president shouldn’t tell the Department of Justice who it should and shouldn’t be prosecuting — there’s nothing preventing said customs from being violated.

And what happens if current laws change?

A recent Georgia bill took away some of the powers of Georgia’s Secretary of State — Brad Raffensberger. Mike thinks that’s clearly retribution for Raffensperger’s refusal to overturn the 2020 election results. But he also thinks it means that the next time someone tries to overturn the results of the election, they could get much farther than Trump did in 2020.

In this interview Mike covers what he thinks are the three most important levers to push on to preserve liberal democracy in the United States:

  1. Reforming the political system, by e.g. introducing new voting methods
  2. Revitalizing local journalism
  3. Reducing partisan hatred within the United States

Mike says that American democracy, like democracy elsewhere in the world, is not an inevitability. The U.S. has institutions that are really important for the functioning of democracy, but they don’t automatically protect themselves — they need people to stand up and protect them.

In addition to the changes listed above, Mike also thinks that we need to harden more norms into laws, such that individuals have fewer opportunities to undermine the system.

And inasmuch as laws provided the foundation for the likes of Raffensperger, Kemp, and Pence to exhibit political courage, if we can succeed in creating and maintaining the right laws — we may see many others following their lead.

As Founding Father James Madison put it: “If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.”

Mike and Rob also talk about:

  • What sorts of terrible scenarios we should actually be worried about, i.e. the difference between being overly alarmist and properly alarmist
  • How to reduce perverse incentives for political actors, including those to overturn election results
  • The best opportunities for donations in this space
  • And much more

Get this episode by subscribing to our podcast on the world’s most pressing problems and how to solve them: type 80,000 Hours into your podcasting app. Or read the transcript below.

Producer: Keiran Harris
Audio mastering: Ben Cordell
Transcriptions: Sofia Davis-Fogel

Highlights

What we should actually be worried about

Mike Berkowitz: I think one can be overly or properly alarmist about these questions, and I try to be properly alarmist about them. I don’t think that the threat is a dictatorship or totalitarian state as we saw in the 20th century. We don’t see the decline of democracy or the deterioration or deconsolidation, as political scientists refer to it, of democracy around the world. We don’t see a lot of violent conflict. We don’t see coups or revolutions. We actually see a much more subtle chipping away at the foundations of liberal democracy.

Mike Berkowitz: So the things that worry me are kind of a version of illiberal democracy, where we might have elections, but we don’t have some of the protections of small-l liberalism, the rule of law, separation of powers, individual rights, things like that. Or we might think about it as sort of a soft authoritarianism. Those are the things that I’m worried about. And we see them in other states around the world. You see these things in places like Russia, Turkey, Brazil. You might have elections, but are they free and fair? You might have separation of powers on paper, but as we are seeing in the United States, more and more power is being vested in the executive branch. I worry about restrictions on civil society that we see around the world, the consolidation of media into the hands of the few. These are the kinds of things that I worry about much more so than a sort of prototypical 20th century authoritarian state.

Improving incentives for representatives

Mike Berkowitz: So this is where I think both political leadership and political structures and incentives really do matter. On the one hand, one can look at leadership here and say, if Donald Trump hadn’t been making the claim and pushing others to make the claim that the election was stolen, we wouldn’t have seen hardly any of the actors who abided by that falsehood do so last year. I just really don’t think we would have seen that. Donald Trump’s popularity and power within the Republican Party also forced their hand to some extent. Again, I think it was the wrong calculus on many levels, but he really did box many Republican politicians in by taking that position.

Mike Berkowitz: But to your point, this is also where incentives and structures really do matter. And I think we’ve realized that even the best politicians, even the most courageous and moral, and ethical ones are working within a system that has particular incentives to it. And so there’s a lot of political reform efforts that are out there right now that are really looking at this question. For instance, there was just a report that came out, I believe it was called The Primary Problem by a group called Unite America, just out this week, and they really talk about the problem of partisan primaries, where you have the most ideologically committed voters within a party turn out in what’s almost always a low-turnout election. This is the way primary elections are. And the incentives, then, if you are trying to win a partisan primary, are to be more partisan. You’re trying to get your base.

Mike Berkowitz: And so therefore you wind up with more ideologically extreme candidates in general elections. And again, because people largely vote based on the hat that they wear, the R or the D in American democracy next to a candidate’s name, it almost doesn’t matter how extreme a candidate is in many districts because those districts are so safe, they’re going to win regardless. So I do think political reforms are important here. I’m a little agnostic personally about which ones, we could talk more about this, but I do think some reforms to the system are really key to get at the structures there as well.

Most valuable political reforms

Mike Berkowitz: I think we have to change some of the incentive structures and see what happens. It was noted that Lisa Murkowski, a Republican senator from Alaska, was the first senator on the right to come out in favor of Donald Trump’s impeachment after January 6th. Well, that also happened after Alaska had passed a set of voting reforms, including final-four voting, where there were no longer going to be partisan primaries, there will be an open primary and the top four vote getters will move on to the general election and there will be ranked-choice voting. So you’ll get to list your preferences among the final four candidates. And that is thought to enable more candidates to appeal to a wider segment of the population. So it was noted that this reform may have played a significant role in Murkowski being able to come out as quickly as she did and as forcefully as she did on Donald Trump’s impeachment. So political reforms I think are key.

Mike Berkowitz: One of the most promising ones on the voting front, for instance, is automatic voter registration. It’s a little bit odd and probably not coincidental in the United States that when a boy turns 18, he’s automatically drafted into the selective service. That happens without him doing anything, and means he could be on call for military service at some point. But one has to proactively register to vote to avail oneself of that right in our system. I should note, it’s not a constitutional right, there is no right to vote in the U.S. constitution, which I think is also a challenge here.

Mike Berkowitz: And so automatic voter registration is at least one I think quite popular reform — not just on the left, but it actually has some adherence across the political spectrum. It basically says that when you go to get a driver’s license, for instance, you’re automatically enrolled to vote. So that’s a really, really key reform on the voting rights front. I do think expanding the ability to vote by mail is really key, I think we saw a lot of that.

Mike Berkowitz: I would love on the redistricting front to see us get rid of partisan redistricting. I think that the incentives there are just all wrong. And I think it’s clear that we need independent [missions], not that they’re easy to implement or figure out, there’s still lots of challenges, but I would like to see us move away from partisan redistricting. When it comes to reforms about how we elect our representatives, that’s where I’m much more agnostic.

Revitalizing local journalism

Mike Berkowitz: I think our politics, at least here in the United States, are much less polarized at the local level than they are at the federal level. And so when we are paying attention to federal politics, we’re seeing the worst manifestations of political polarization and that is affecting the way that we understand our democracy and understand our politics right now. And so the more that we can be focusing at the local level where there is, as you said, a lot of common concerns that don’t fall along traditional — and traditional in this sense really means national or federal — political lines… And that’s part of what we need to overcome the polarization in our country, is to cross-cut some of those standard divisions.

Mike Berkowitz: The other thing is that there’s a presumption, which I think is probably true, that one of the challenges that is afflicting American democracy is a lack of felt agency. That as people look out at the world they see a growing federal government and bureaucracy, and that bureaucracy includes many parts of it that are unelected, because you elect the president, you elect the senator and you elect your representative, but you don’t elect the other members of the executive branch, for instance. And the executive branch is huge, it has lots and lots of employees and different departments, and so there are a proliferating number of decision-making bodies that people literally have no control over.

Mike Berkowitz: And then you get to an environment in which we, for good reasons, have to be engaging with other countries to make international policy on things like human rights or climate change, and that is even less connected to people’s ability to influence things. So then when you think about, “Where can we actually have an impact in our democracy, where can we feel connected to it?” it’s at the local level. There are just so many more opportunities there to see and touch and feel, to have an impact, to get to know people, to know the issues. And so I think we need more of that. It’s actually a weakness, I would say, of progressive politics.

Mike Berkowitz: Over the last half century, we’ve put so much effort…I don’t want to malign the reasons why this happened, but we’ve put so much effort into national politics. And by the way, also into the judicial system, where again, people don’t have an ability to control or influence that. We’ve put so much emphasis there that we’ve moved people’s attention away from the things that they can feel connected to that are really the bread-and-butter of democracy.

Reducing partisan hatred

Mike Berkowitz: One thing is we just have to find ways to get out of our bubbles. Now, this is really hard to do right now, because as we’ve talked about, we are geographically sorting, and so we live with fewer and fewer people who we disagree with, but it’s a key piece. We also have to understand that in a pluralistic democracy, certainly one like the United States that has 330 million people, people are going to have different views, we’re not all going to see things the same way. And part of the project here is we have to get comfortable with that, we have to be okay with it. And when we are in a social cohesion/building frame in particular, we need to not see our project as trying to convince other people to see things the way that we do. There has to be tolerance for different views, that is what pluralism is.

Mike Berkowitz: We have to be able to live together in a society, in a political community, recognizing that we have differences, and fighting for those differences. And by the way, this is not a call for trying to get along all the time for a consensus — we should have deeply held political beliefs, and when we have them, we should fight for them. But we also need to recognize at the end of the day that other people are fighting for their deeply held beliefs too. And however wrong we might think they are, we’re going to have to accommodate one another in one way or another. We can’t have total defeat in a democracy, certainly not in a pluralistic one.

Mike Berkowitz: We need to get out more and do things together that take us outside of our standard partisan divisions. There’s a group I often like to point to in this instance called the One America Movement, which gets people across lots of different lines of difference in their communities to actually go out and do projects together of common interest and concern — volunteering, community service, helping rebuild after a natural disaster.

Mike Berkowitz: When you take people out of the red/blue partisan divide and actually put them in their communities doing things where they have shared concerns, you cross-cut, again, those political identities and build new identities. And it’s in those new identities that we can start to find some way to cohere. We also need more in-group moderates. So this is a term of art and it doesn’t actually refer to political moderates or centrists, what it refers to is people who are willing to stand up against the worst impulses of their own side. It’s very easy to criticize the other side of the aisle, but it’s much harder to criticize your own — but it’s actually the key thing to creating political communities that are willing to act with some moderation and some forbearance for the other side.

Articles, books, and other media discussed in the show

Organizations and projects

Books

Articles and reports

Trevor Potter on The Colbert Report

Other links

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About the show

The 80,000 Hours Podcast features unusually in-depth conversations about the world's most pressing problems and how you can use your career to solve them. We invite guests pursuing a wide range of career paths — from academics and activists to entrepreneurs and policymakers — to analyse the case for and against working on different issues and which approaches are best for solving them.

The 80,000 Hours Podcast is produced and edited by Keiran Harris. Get in touch with feedback or guest suggestions by emailing [email protected].

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